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	<title>Comments on: Gandhi as lord, liar or lunatic</title>
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	<description>Philosophy through multiple traditions</description>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/gandhi-as-lord-liar-or-lunatic/comment-page-1/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=74#comment-209</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a very thoughtful comment. It&#039;s rare that I see Lewis&#039;s position get seriously defended (as opposed to just restated).

Still, I have my doubts. On the claim that it is either true or insane - this will probably hinge on how we define insanity. On many definitions - probably even most standard definitions - one could call it insane &lt;i&gt;even if&lt;/i&gt; true. Just on the Wikipedia definition of mental illness, we find &quot;a clinically significant behavioral or psychological pattern that occurs in an individual and is usually associated with distress, disability or increased risk of suffering.&quot; Dude suffered and died on the cross for his belief and behaviour - that seems to follow such a definition exactly. Even if Jesus &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; everything that John says he claimed to be, he could count as clinically insane by most definitions: lord &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; lunatic. Presumably under such a circumstance we should still follow him. But that fits smoothly with the Nietzschean claim: the great artists and creators who have the most to teach us are always a little insane, and that would go more so for the greatest of all.

I mean there is an interesting epistemological question here too. Suppose you actually were the only begotten Son of God. How would you know? Whatever certainty you might have, whatever reasons you might have to justify the belief, couldn&#039;t there also be someone who wasn&#039;t the Son and had the same beliefs and certainty? Psychologically, from the inside, it would seem hard to tell the difference, unless there&#039;s something I&#039;m missing. The upshot of all this would seem to be: if Jesus the Christ can be relied on as a great moral teacher, then why can&#039;t Jesus the mere human being? The core belief is true in one case and false in another, but it&#039;s very difficult to tell which.

As for his teaching not being especially new - you may well be on to something. (I can&#039;t say much here, knowing very little about the prophets.) On the other hand, the very emphasis and drama may help the teaching resonate with us in a way the previous prophets don&#039;t - not to mention the ensuing two millennia of history. Jesus&#039;s ethical teachings may well do more for most of us in the contemporary West than do, say, Jeremiah&#039;s or Ezekiel&#039;s.

P.S. Small pet peeve of mine: the H in Gandhi comes after the D, not the G.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a very thoughtful comment. It&#8217;s rare that I see Lewis&#8217;s position get seriously defended (as opposed to just restated).</p>
<p>Still, I have my doubts. On the claim that it is either true or insane &#8211; this will probably hinge on how we define insanity. On many definitions &#8211; probably even most standard definitions &#8211; one could call it insane <i>even if</i> true. Just on the Wikipedia definition of mental illness, we find &#8220;a clinically significant behavioral or psychological pattern that occurs in an individual and is usually associated with distress, disability or increased risk of suffering.&#8221; Dude suffered and died on the cross for his belief and behaviour &#8211; that seems to follow such a definition exactly. Even if Jesus <i>were</i> everything that John says he claimed to be, he could count as clinically insane by most definitions: lord <i>and</i> lunatic. Presumably under such a circumstance we should still follow him. But that fits smoothly with the Nietzschean claim: the great artists and creators who have the most to teach us are always a little insane, and that would go more so for the greatest of all.</p>
<p>I mean there is an interesting epistemological question here too. Suppose you actually were the only begotten Son of God. How would you know? Whatever certainty you might have, whatever reasons you might have to justify the belief, couldn&#8217;t there also be someone who wasn&#8217;t the Son and had the same beliefs and certainty? Psychologically, from the inside, it would seem hard to tell the difference, unless there&#8217;s something I&#8217;m missing. The upshot of all this would seem to be: if Jesus the Christ can be relied on as a great moral teacher, then why can&#8217;t Jesus the mere human being? The core belief is true in one case and false in another, but it&#8217;s very difficult to tell which.</p>
<p>As for his teaching not being especially new &#8211; you may well be on to something. (I can&#8217;t say much here, knowing very little about the prophets.) On the other hand, the very emphasis and drama may help the teaching resonate with us in a way the previous prophets don&#8217;t &#8211; not to mention the ensuing two millennia of history. Jesus&#8217;s ethical teachings may well do more for most of us in the contemporary West than do, say, Jeremiah&#8217;s or Ezekiel&#8217;s.</p>
<p>P.S. Small pet peeve of mine: the H in Gandhi comes after the D, not the G.</p>
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		<title>By: djr</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/gandhi-as-lord-liar-or-lunatic/comment-page-1/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>djr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=74#comment-199</guid>
		<description>Well, we didn&#039;t need Ehrman (who strikes me, in what little of his I&#039;ve read, as a rather sloppy thinker) to refute Lewis&#039; argument -- its pretty plain that John isn&#039;t historically reliable (in the purely epistemic sense, at least, that even if every word attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John were something that Jesus actually said, we don&#039;t have good historical-critical reasons to think so), and so I&#039;ve long been surprised that people continue to go with Lewis&#039; argument as a piece of apologetics. 

I&#039;m strongly inclined to resist your comparison with Ghandi, though. Even if Ghandi was a fairly insane, arrogant guy -- even if, say, he had also cultivated other, nastier habits -- those sorts of character flaws are perfectly compatible with being a great moral teacher. Claiming to be the incarnation of God, however, and making that claim central to your teaching, is really very weird and goes beyond arrogance; its pretty much either true or insane. There&#039;s nothing strange about saying that such a person also had espoused great ethical ideas, but I don&#039;t think a person so insane could be too reliable a guide to moral teaching.

As it happens, I don&#039;t think that much of Jesus&#039; distinctively *ethical* teaching is all that new, revolutionary, or anything. Everything new and revolutionary about Christianity is tied up with his being the incarnation of God -- which, even if John is the only evangelist who makes Jesus *say* this of himself, is, in some form or another, clearly an idea behind all of the documents of the New Testament with the very barely possible exception of Mark. As a strictly ethical teacher, Jesus pretty much just presents a very emphatic, dramatic form of what Hebrew prophets and near-contemporary Jewish teachers had and were saying. If, however, Jesus has the very special relationship with God that the Gospels and epistles say that he has (again, even though John is the only evangelist who makes him come out and say, &quot;Hey, I&#039;m the incarnation of the divine logos, how&#039;s it goin&#039;? Need some bread of life? Look no further.&quot;), then we get a drastically different picture, because we get a drastically different view of God himself and the relationship between human beings and God. 

Take none of this as a defense of the New Testament or any kind of apologetic. I think atheists of all stripes could agree with what I say here; but it does entail acknowledging that non-Christians can only have a little bit of what Jesus has to offer. Of course, that may not be so bad -- if all that other stuff isn&#039;t true, then we shouldn&#039;t want it anyway, and it&#039;s perfectly possible to agree and still think that the purely ethical teachings that are left over are good stuff, even if they were attached to a whole bunch of nonsense about the divine logos becoming human in order to overcome the alienation of the human from the divine. But that still leaves the guy crazy and not too original.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, we didn&#8217;t need Ehrman (who strikes me, in what little of his I&#8217;ve read, as a rather sloppy thinker) to refute Lewis&#8217; argument &#8212; its pretty plain that John isn&#8217;t historically reliable (in the purely epistemic sense, at least, that even if every word attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John were something that Jesus actually said, we don&#8217;t have good historical-critical reasons to think so), and so I&#8217;ve long been surprised that people continue to go with Lewis&#8217; argument as a piece of apologetics. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m strongly inclined to resist your comparison with Ghandi, though. Even if Ghandi was a fairly insane, arrogant guy &#8212; even if, say, he had also cultivated other, nastier habits &#8212; those sorts of character flaws are perfectly compatible with being a great moral teacher. Claiming to be the incarnation of God, however, and making that claim central to your teaching, is really very weird and goes beyond arrogance; its pretty much either true or insane. There&#8217;s nothing strange about saying that such a person also had espoused great ethical ideas, but I don&#8217;t think a person so insane could be too reliable a guide to moral teaching.</p>
<p>As it happens, I don&#8217;t think that much of Jesus&#8217; distinctively *ethical* teaching is all that new, revolutionary, or anything. Everything new and revolutionary about Christianity is tied up with his being the incarnation of God &#8212; which, even if John is the only evangelist who makes Jesus *say* this of himself, is, in some form or another, clearly an idea behind all of the documents of the New Testament with the very barely possible exception of Mark. As a strictly ethical teacher, Jesus pretty much just presents a very emphatic, dramatic form of what Hebrew prophets and near-contemporary Jewish teachers had and were saying. If, however, Jesus has the very special relationship with God that the Gospels and epistles say that he has (again, even though John is the only evangelist who makes him come out and say, &#8220;Hey, I&#8217;m the incarnation of the divine logos, how&#8217;s it goin&#8217;? Need some bread of life? Look no further.&#8221;), then we get a drastically different picture, because we get a drastically different view of God himself and the relationship between human beings and God. </p>
<p>Take none of this as a defense of the New Testament or any kind of apologetic. I think atheists of all stripes could agree with what I say here; but it does entail acknowledging that non-Christians can only have a little bit of what Jesus has to offer. Of course, that may not be so bad &#8212; if all that other stuff isn&#8217;t true, then we shouldn&#8217;t want it anyway, and it&#8217;s perfectly possible to agree and still think that the purely ethical teachings that are left over are good stuff, even if they were attached to a whole bunch of nonsense about the divine logos becoming human in order to overcome the alienation of the human from the divine. But that still leaves the guy crazy and not too original.</p>
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