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	<title>Comments on: Justice as a mean</title>
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	<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/</link>
	<description>Philosophy through multiple traditions</description>
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		<title>By: Amod</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Ah - well, then I think we get into a meatier point: about the relationship between virtue, happiness, and the good life. The Stoics would have said that by making another person more virtuous, you are by definition making their life better, whether or not they&#039;re any happier. I&#039;m not sure whether I agree with them on that, but it&#039;s a powerful and interesting claim. The issue deserves a whole post, probably more than one, and I&#039;m hoping to go there in the not-too-distant future. We might take it up more then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah &#8211; well, then I think we get into a meatier point: about the relationship between virtue, happiness, and the good life. The Stoics would have said that by making another person more virtuous, you are by definition making their life better, whether or not they&#8217;re any happier. I&#8217;m not sure whether I agree with them on that, but it&#8217;s a powerful and interesting claim. The issue deserves a whole post, probably more than one, and I&#8217;m hoping to go there in the not-too-distant future. We might take it up more then.</p>
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		<title>By: Emergent</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Emergent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I think I was unclear about part of my point in my last paragraph: standing up *might* be good for the person you&#039;re standing up to, but quite possibly not. That requires a lot of assumptions about what other people need to have a &quot;good life&quot;.  For most of us, being taught to be better people is a good thing for us.  But I don&#039;t think we (or anyone) has the grounds to specify what will make someone else&#039;s life satisfying, because that&#039;s a wholly subjective/internal measure.

Rather, I&#039;d intended a much more utilitarian point: it&#039;s good because it helps train people out of their bad behavior, possibly preventing future &quot;victims&quot;.  It&#039;s not necessarily about helping the actor, and it doesn&#039;t have to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I was unclear about part of my point in my last paragraph: standing up *might* be good for the person you&#8217;re standing up to, but quite possibly not. That requires a lot of assumptions about what other people need to have a &#8220;good life&#8221;.  For most of us, being taught to be better people is a good thing for us.  But I don&#8217;t think we (or anyone) has the grounds to specify what will make someone else&#8217;s life satisfying, because that&#8217;s a wholly subjective/internal measure.</p>
<p>Rather, I&#8217;d intended a much more utilitarian point: it&#8217;s good because it helps train people out of their bad behavior, possibly preventing future &#8220;victims&#8221;.  It&#8217;s not necessarily about helping the actor, and it doesn&#8217;t have to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Good points, Ben - to stand up for what is rightfully yours is at least potentially a major benefit for the person you&#039;re standing up to (even if they refuse to see it at the time!) I know I&#039;m grateful to people in my life who have refused to put up with my bad behaviour towards them. 

It&#039;s easy to lose track of these points because we so often think of good people as being &quot;nice&quot; - but niceness can often imply this exact problem, of servility and conflict aversion, in a way that ultimately isn&#039;t good for the nice person or those around them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Ben &#8211; to stand up for what is rightfully yours is at least potentially a major benefit for the person you&#8217;re standing up to (even if they refuse to see it at the time!) I know I&#8217;m grateful to people in my life who have refused to put up with my bad behaviour towards them. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to lose track of these points because we so often think of good people as being &#8220;nice&#8221; &#8211; but niceness can often imply this exact problem, of servility and conflict aversion, in a way that ultimately isn&#8217;t good for the nice person or those around them.</p>
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		<title>By: Emergent</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Emergent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-26</guid>
		<description>I think this discussion can also benefit from a tie back to your previous post: the idea of virtue ethics, wherein (to simplify) good things are good because they make you a better person.

Presumably, to suffer injustice is to allow someone else (here, the &quot;actor&quot;) to commit injustice, by intent or ignorance on their part.  If the victim (&quot;subject&quot;) stands up to the actor, this will -one hopes- discourage the actor from behaving this way in the future, train them out of their callousness or obliviousness.

Will the actor&#039;s life actually be better if they become more virtuous?  Quite possibly not; that&#039;s a big problem with virtue ethics.  But it will probably make life better not only for the subject (which one may or may not consider justice), but also for other future potential subjects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this discussion can also benefit from a tie back to your previous post: the idea of virtue ethics, wherein (to simplify) good things are good because they make you a better person.</p>
<p>Presumably, to suffer injustice is to allow someone else (here, the &#8220;actor&#8221;) to commit injustice, by intent or ignorance on their part.  If the victim (&#8220;subject&#8221;) stands up to the actor, this will -one hopes- discourage the actor from behaving this way in the future, train them out of their callousness or obliviousness.</p>
<p>Will the actor&#8217;s life actually be better if they become more virtuous?  Quite possibly not; that&#8217;s a big problem with virtue ethics.  But it will probably make life better not only for the subject (which one may or may not consider justice), but also for other future potential subjects.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Good questions, Elisa. I think they take us toward the question of moral blame itself. Surely it is worse not to know one&#039;s legitimate obligations than to know them, and one who doesn&#039;t know is in some respect a worse person than one who does. But I don&#039;t think that necessarily means we should &lt;i&gt;blame&lt;/i&gt; the ignorant person. Blame seems to imply a separate level of criticism that the ignorant person doesn&#039;t deserve - unless perhaps they&#039;ve had plenty of very obvious opportunities to learn and have not taken them.

I&#039;ve toyed with the idea that there shouldn&#039;t be any such thing as moral blame; Śāntideva says words to that effect. Ultimately I disagree with him, at least to the extent that we are trying to live in the everyday world and not rise above it as monks. But I do suspect that blame often plays more of a role in contemporary ethics than it should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions, Elisa. I think they take us toward the question of moral blame itself. Surely it is worse not to know one&#8217;s legitimate obligations than to know them, and one who doesn&#8217;t know is in some respect a worse person than one who does. But I don&#8217;t think that necessarily means we should <i>blame</i> the ignorant person. Blame seems to imply a separate level of criticism that the ignorant person doesn&#8217;t deserve &#8211; unless perhaps they&#8217;ve had plenty of very obvious opportunities to learn and have not taken them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve toyed with the idea that there shouldn&#8217;t be any such thing as moral blame; Śāntideva says words to that effect. Ultimately I disagree with him, at least to the extent that we are trying to live in the everyday world and not rise above it as monks. But I do suspect that blame often plays more of a role in contemporary ethics than it should.</p>
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		<title>By: elisa freschi</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/justice-as-a-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>elisa freschi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=136#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Thanks a lot for this post! I think you are absolutely right. Accepting, for instance, to receive less than one deserves risks to make other people greedy and unjust, as they may not be aware that they are getting so much just because of one&#039;s generosity. So, being just to oneself also is somehow a moral duty towards others. But –and as far as women and oppressed people are concerned– this implies that one knows what is just to receive/pretend/give, etc. Is the non-awareness of one&#039;s rights to be morally blamed? Else, could one suggest that this implies that –as often with Socrates– one behaves badly just because of a lack of knowledge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for this post! I think you are absolutely right. Accepting, for instance, to receive less than one deserves risks to make other people greedy and unjust, as they may not be aware that they are getting so much just because of one&#8217;s generosity. So, being just to oneself also is somehow a moral duty towards others. But –and as far as women and oppressed people are concerned– this implies that one knows what is just to receive/pretend/give, etc. Is the non-awareness of one&#8217;s rights to be morally blamed? Else, could one suggest that this implies that –as often with Socrates– one behaves badly just because of a lack of knowledge?</p>
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