Comments on: Reconsidering traditional masculinity

By: The trouble with nice | Love of All Wisdom

The trouble with nice | Love of All Wisdom — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 04:00:34 +0000

[...] – or more concretely, between the nice guy and the gentleman. While in other respects I was unimpressed with Harvey Mansfield’s talk on manliness, I thought he gave an excellent reply there to a question about the ideal of the gentleman: a [...]

By: Amod Lele

Amod Lele — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 02:52:03 +0000

Hey Ayse – welcome to the blog! No problem on the lateness, it’s great to have you around.

So… hmmmm. That is a very good point. Especially in light of what I said before about passive aggression… people like Slash notwithstanding, passive aggression is also something more commonly associated with women, for all the reasons you mention. Women are supposed to shut up and not voice their anger, which leads to it coming out in worse ways.

So I think you’re probably right overall and I should retract my last statement – it’s not that the reverse of Mansfield’s claim is true, just that his original claim is false. Dammit, it’s so hard to make a good shrewd generalization. :)

I will still defend the value of patient endurance for both women and men, though; in many respects I think it is more important than fighting for justice, and I suspect we differ greatly on this point. That’s a bit of a tangent from this particular post, but I’m sure it will come up again a number of times on this blog.

By: Ayse

Ayse — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:49:39 +0000

Apologies for the late response. I’m a bit behind on my blogroll reading.

It’s women, conditioned to be emotional, who most need a healthy dose of Buddhist patient endurance.

I’m very, very uneasy with this wording. Women have been socialized for centuries to be silent about rape and abuse; to not make a fuss or rock the boat; to “lie back and think of England”; to let the men lead with their strong hands and to “patiently endure” the consequences of masculine decisions; to do whatever they can to avoid being perceived as “shrill” or “bitchy.”

I do understand that neither the Buddhist ideal nor [S|s]toicism are the same as bland passivity. But given that too many women are already taught that silence is a virtue, I am uncomfortable with anything that looks like it condones yet more situations that we are expected to “patiently endure.” I am much more interested in urging women to speak up and to fight injustice.

By: Amod Lele

Amod Lele — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:58:39 +0000

I guess I’m a little reluctant to talk about the Divine Mother in this sense because I don’t want to essentialize gender roles as something natural to the cosmos. I wanted to point out both the role of socialization in gender roles, and the importance of achieving both male and female virtues. Though I suppose the Divine Mother might be helpful for some people in achieving exactly that balance within themselves.

By: michael reidy

michael reidy — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:57:00 +0000

” Patience is all the strength a man needs” (Hindu Teacher) Getting through, sticking it out, is vital. The Stoic cosmos is a cool one , not chilly but lacking the presence of the Divine Mother. Friends that one can talk to are good but if you need friends that very neediness and focus on oneself drives people away. There’s a double bind there.

Slash lived to tell his tale and I think that if you can live past the age of 27 (for a man) without major damage or addiction you’ll be alright.

Is Harvey Mansfield pushing back against the sisterhood. Women are very patient. Have you noticed how they will go all over the parking lot ignoring vacancies to find the perfect spot?