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	<title>Comments on: Could we please stop talking about the &#8220;problem of evil&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/</link>
	<description>Philosophy through multiple traditions</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:23:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: God, Haiti, Pat Robertson, and Obama &#171; The world is all that is the case</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-916</link>
		<dc:creator>God, Haiti, Pat Robertson, and Obama &#171; The world is all that is the case</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-916</guid>
		<description>[...] the &#8220;problem of evil&#8221; is actually a bad way of referring to it.  Amod Lele correctly points out that it should be called &#8220;the problem of suffering&#8221; since free will allows people to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the &#8220;problem of evil&#8221; is actually a bad way of referring to it.  Amod Lele correctly points out that it should be called &#8220;the problem of suffering&#8221; since free will allows people to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-812</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-812</guid>
		<description>I suppose one&#039;s theodicy will itself depend on the way one gets to God. If you accept a deterministic proof like &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/the-god-that-matters/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anselm&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; in which God&#039;s existence is necessary, then theodicy will not do as an objection - it might be easier in that view to deny the existence of suffering in the world, to say it&#039;s an illusion. On a probabilistic proof like the design argument (God as the best explanation for the world, the hypothesis that Darwin entertained before he found the evidence for evolution), suffering is much more decisive, a reason to reject the hypothesis. The &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/the-four-explanations-and-the-first-explanation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;First Explanation&lt;/a&gt; proof is somewhere in the middle; there, some sort of God must exist despite the suffering, but it&#039;s not hard to deny that God&#039;s omnipotence, and one might even be able to deny his omnibenevolence.

Now if one&#039;s understanding of God is not based on rational considerations, then theodicy may be the least of one&#039;s worries, but it&#039;s still a problem. One is supposed to simply put one&#039;s trust in the God who drowns innocent chidren in Hurricane Katrina, or allows them to be burned alive at Auschwitz? What has this God done to earn our trust? Trust in wiser souls is important in nearly every tradition - but that trust must be merited, and must be merited far more so if the trust is to be blind and irrational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose one&#8217;s theodicy will itself depend on the way one gets to God. If you accept a deterministic proof like <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/06/the-god-that-matters/" rel="nofollow">Anselm&#8217;s</a> in which God&#8217;s existence is necessary, then theodicy will not do as an objection &#8211; it might be easier in that view to deny the existence of suffering in the world, to say it&#8217;s an illusion. On a probabilistic proof like the design argument (God as the best explanation for the world, the hypothesis that Darwin entertained before he found the evidence for evolution), suffering is much more decisive, a reason to reject the hypothesis. The <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/the-four-explanations-and-the-first-explanation/" rel="nofollow">First Explanation</a> proof is somewhere in the middle; there, some sort of God must exist despite the suffering, but it&#8217;s not hard to deny that God&#8217;s omnipotence, and one might even be able to deny his omnibenevolence.</p>
<p>Now if one&#8217;s understanding of God is not based on rational considerations, then theodicy may be the least of one&#8217;s worries, but it&#8217;s still a problem. One is supposed to simply put one&#8217;s trust in the God who drowns innocent chidren in Hurricane Katrina, or allows them to be burned alive at Auschwitz? What has this God done to earn our trust? Trust in wiser souls is important in nearly every tradition &#8211; but that trust must be merited, and must be merited far more so if the trust is to be blind and irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: michael reidy</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-801</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reidy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-801</guid>
		<description>Fraught question, some stray thoughts:

If there was a &#039;God for Dummies&#039; book it would have a chapter entitled - Dealing with Evil or When Bad Things Happen.  Having a plan for that or an understanding that includes the torment of the innocent does not naturally issue, I think, from a rational understanding of the deity.

Theodicy is based on a naturalistic understanding of a deity that is subject to rational logical considerations.  But that god is not the God of religion.  The God of religion is mediated by an incarnation and our understanding is modified by that manifestation of the divine.  Only Islam and Judaism have no strict theological sense of the human/divine though one could claim that there is a strong heterodox element in Islam amongst Sufi saints that have claimed divinisation.  The faith that is preached through the sermon on the mount or the Bhagavad Gita is one in which cosmic justice prevails.  The devotee trusts the word of the master on this.

The question remains whether a rational theodicy is possible.  Taking theodicy as a rational exercise it is clear that the first step must be to demonstrate the existence of God.   Having done so you can progress to examine the concept of god for its coherence.  Is it not redundant to claim that there can be no God (or that there is probably no God and you are moreover on the wrong bus)  because theodicy reveals difficulty in the concept of god.  So what is logically impossible or inconceivable then determines what is or is not.  Ought not the actuality of what is or is not be an empirical and not a logical question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fraught question, some stray thoughts:</p>
<p>If there was a &#8216;God for Dummies&#8217; book it would have a chapter entitled &#8211; Dealing with Evil or When Bad Things Happen.  Having a plan for that or an understanding that includes the torment of the innocent does not naturally issue, I think, from a rational understanding of the deity.</p>
<p>Theodicy is based on a naturalistic understanding of a deity that is subject to rational logical considerations.  But that god is not the God of religion.  The God of religion is mediated by an incarnation and our understanding is modified by that manifestation of the divine.  Only Islam and Judaism have no strict theological sense of the human/divine though one could claim that there is a strong heterodox element in Islam amongst Sufi saints that have claimed divinisation.  The faith that is preached through the sermon on the mount or the Bhagavad Gita is one in which cosmic justice prevails.  The devotee trusts the word of the master on this.</p>
<p>The question remains whether a rational theodicy is possible.  Taking theodicy as a rational exercise it is clear that the first step must be to demonstrate the existence of God.   Having done so you can progress to examine the concept of god for its coherence.  Is it not redundant to claim that there can be no God (or that there is probably no God and you are moreover on the wrong bus)  because theodicy reveals difficulty in the concept of god.  So what is logically impossible or inconceivable then determines what is or is not.  Ought not the actuality of what is or is not be an empirical and not a logical question.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-799</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-799</guid>
		<description>I should add that I haven&#039;t read Frankl&#039;s book, but I&#039;d like to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that I haven&#8217;t read Frankl&#8217;s book, but I&#8217;d like to.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-798</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-798</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Michael. I do think there&#039;s a time and a place for symbolic logic, as for most specialized technical languages; it&#039;s just a very limited one. And Religion 100 is certainly not it.

A sense of meaning is something that helps a lot in dealing with the world&#039;s pain, I think. Two related problems: one, it is no good for those who cannot find meaning. The infant drowned horribly in a tsunami or thrown into a concentration camp&#039;s incinerator is not developed enough to grasp the idea of meaning and purpose, but suffers all the same.

Two, a sense of meaning deals with pain at the level of the individual who has the meaning, not a larger cosmic level. In other words, while it may be able to deal with theodicy in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/advaita-theodicy-and-the-goodness-of-existence/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more generalized philosophical sense&lt;/a&gt;, it still doesn&#039;t explain God&#039;s actions - it doesn&#039;t allow an omnipotent omnibenevolent God as the source of that meaning. (It could certainly allow some other sort of God, a small-g god like &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ganesh&lt;/a&gt; who is not omnipotent, or a god so universal he contains all evil as well as all good within him.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Michael. I do think there&#8217;s a time and a place for symbolic logic, as for most specialized technical languages; it&#8217;s just a very limited one. And Religion 100 is certainly not it.</p>
<p>A sense of meaning is something that helps a lot in dealing with the world&#8217;s pain, I think. Two related problems: one, it is no good for those who cannot find meaning. The infant drowned horribly in a tsunami or thrown into a concentration camp&#8217;s incinerator is not developed enough to grasp the idea of meaning and purpose, but suffers all the same.</p>
<p>Two, a sense of meaning deals with pain at the level of the individual who has the meaning, not a larger cosmic level. In other words, while it may be able to deal with theodicy in a <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/advaita-theodicy-and-the-goodness-of-existence/" rel="nofollow">more generalized philosophical sense</a>, it still doesn&#8217;t explain God&#8217;s actions &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t allow an omnipotent omnibenevolent God as the source of that meaning. (It could certainly allow some other sort of God, a small-g god like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha" rel="nofollow">Ganesh</a> who is not omnipotent, or a god so universal he contains all evil as well as all good within him.)</p>
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		<title>By: michael reidy</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-794</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reidy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 00:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-794</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t inflict symbolic logic on your hapless students, there is already too much pain in the world.  One has always felt that such papers are the last refuge of the analytic philosopher that has run out of ideas.  You have first to make the argument before you can formalise it.  

&#039;What about Lisbon&#039;, &#039;What about tsunamis?  You may as well say, &#039;What about the laws of physics?&#039;  You look at the beautiful sunlit photograph of an Edwardian tennis party  and know that all the players have one thing in common.  They are all dead.  There is no sense of an evil fate even though some if not all of their deaths were painful.  

Consciousness involving introspection is a late blooming thing in the history of the cosmos.  What&#039;s the point of that and how did it come about?  Theodicy is analogically speaking the virus that is surrounded and defeated by a larger sense of meaning and purpose.  It is not an independent question that must be answered right off before we can proceed to forge meaning out of the &#039;wreckage&#039;.

It&#039;s a while since I read &lt;i&gt;Mans&#039; Search for Meaning&lt;/i&gt; by Viktor Frankl.  Must root it out.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man&#039;s_Search_for_Meaning</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t inflict symbolic logic on your hapless students, there is already too much pain in the world.  One has always felt that such papers are the last refuge of the analytic philosopher that has run out of ideas.  You have first to make the argument before you can formalise it.  </p>
<p>&#8216;What about Lisbon&#8217;, &#8216;What about tsunamis?  You may as well say, &#8216;What about the laws of physics?&#8217;  You look at the beautiful sunlit photograph of an Edwardian tennis party  and know that all the players have one thing in common.  They are all dead.  There is no sense of an evil fate even though some if not all of their deaths were painful.  </p>
<p>Consciousness involving introspection is a late blooming thing in the history of the cosmos.  What&#8217;s the point of that and how did it come about?  Theodicy is analogically speaking the virus that is surrounded and defeated by a larger sense of meaning and purpose.  It is not an independent question that must be answered right off before we can proceed to forge meaning out of the &#8216;wreckage&#8217;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a while since I read <i>Mans&#8217; Search for Meaning</i> by Viktor Frankl.  Must root it out.   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man&#039;s_Search_for_Meaning" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man&#039;s_Search_for_Meaning</a></p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-793</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-793</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Nick - good to see you again. There are some possible answers to the problem of suffering in a larger sense - it will all get worked out in the afterlife, it&#039;s what allows other humans to act and fix the problem, and so on. I think one can make a relatively coherent theology on such grounds, so I wouldn&#039;t go so far as to call theodicy completely incoherent, but I&#039;ll agree that I don&#039;t find any of these answers particularly convincing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Nick &#8211; good to see you again. There are some possible answers to the problem of suffering in a larger sense &#8211; it will all get worked out in the afterlife, it&#8217;s what allows other humans to act and fix the problem, and so on. I think one can make a relatively coherent theology on such grounds, so I wouldn&#8217;t go so far as to call theodicy completely incoherent, but I&#8217;ll agree that I don&#8217;t find any of these answers particularly convincing.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Smyth</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/could-we-please-stop-talking-about-the-problem-of-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Smyth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=771#comment-790</guid>
		<description>Totally agree.  The problem of &quot;evil&quot; has a relatively easy solution: &quot;evil&quot; acts are necessary consequences of a good thing: free will.  We needn&#039;t look any further than the tsunamis in the southeast pacific to see the incoherence of a Theodicy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree.  The problem of &#8220;evil&#8221; has a relatively easy solution: &#8220;evil&#8221; acts are necessary consequences of a good thing: free will.  We needn&#8217;t look any further than the tsunamis in the southeast pacific to see the incoherence of a Theodicy.</p>
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